how long did paul study under gamaliel

And the head Mormon Apostle. It would be like me claiming that I was educated in worship by Marco Barrientos at Christ for the Nations in Dallas Texas he is the worship leader famous in Spanish Language Charismatic Christian circles for his song based on Isaiah 11:9 Ser Llena la Tierra https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zGS_V5mEOG4, Is it true? scholars can go in offering probable rather than speculative inferences? I can back up my view with plenty of Scripture here is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. Gamaliel is reflecting the Hillel tradition of non-violence and allowing God to deal with parties that against the Jews (Polhill, Paul and His Letters, 31). Right the man has been in Israel for over 20 years and studied in a Yeshiva and created a University be he knows nothing about mainstream Judaism Yet you cant read a sentence of Hebrew to save your life. To be extremely polite, I could say that Paul says some things which are difficult to understand. To be more direct, I could say Paul talks like an arrogant megalomaniac with a messiah complex, proclaiming; I am not under the law but yet making up his own laws as he goes along, that everyone else has to obey. Good to see the parrot-heads well represented here. Phillip, thank you. Its not easy for me now in 1973, as a young man just trying to start out in ministry. As an athlete and sports enthusiast, the references really stuck out to me and are passages of scripture that I have read multiple times. Paul is the model pastor for many modern Pauls like; a) Bob Coy, who still owns all the assets and controls all the money at his cult known as Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, in spite of his recent resignation as Senior Pastor there due to adultery with multiple woman and other major sins that he still has never specifically admitted to personally. Its too bad that modern Pauls control most pulpits, and are constantly bullying the followers of Jesus into silence, ignoring the words of Jesus, and instead leading people to follow PAAL. This is something Peter practiced and had a struggle with regarding gentiles because hes from the school of Shammi. His dissertation was published as Jesus the Bridegroom by Pickwick Books in 2012. Go and sin no more said Jesus, Dont relive that history. He was an expert in the law. Even if Judas was physically present, as we all realize now, he was not a true follower of Jesus. In Matthew 22 and Mark 12, Jesus identified two commandments, saying one of them is the first and greatest most important one. To know the truth is a blessing from Allah, if I had to guess you just have not been taught what Islam teaches, and we honor all Prophets (pbut) revere the 12 Apostles and have never acknowledged that Paul was one of Jesus (p) Apostles, but have always known he was responsible for the corruption of the Truth about God and the Messiah (p). Acts 22:3 - "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of There are some points I agree and disagree with. Your name never appears in the Bible after your appointment as the 12th Apostle in Acts 1. There is no god but God Shahada part 1 in Islam. How can I make them understand that they should deal with Paul Worship the same way that I deal with smoking weed? He uses these references quite often throughout many of his books in the NT. He calls himself "of the people of Israel.". So they disagree with each other. Their differing viewpoints do not seem like enough cause, to me, to doubt that Saul studied with Gamaliel. Why are you waiting, be of those who bow to Gods Will if you know that the Bible has lies in it and is corrupt, you must believe that a true religion exists in the world and isnt a secluded secret for the few who know! Even though Gamaliel was the one who stated in Acts 5:34-39 that if this Jesus movement were from God there would be no way to stop it, they should just let it run its course, Paul was still influenced heavily by the persecution mindset that the rest of the Sanhedrin had. The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like Seven Mountains is Revelation 17, seven hills on which the woman sits. (The Great Prostitute, that is.) Moreover, Paul preached that gentiles ingrafted into the olive tree were part of Israel is a teaching DIRECTLY from Hillel. There is no greater lie than to lie about God. Although Gamaliel was a wise teacher, he was still a Pharisee, so his teaching was not in line with God. Im sorry to shatter your confirmation bias but YEshua nor Paul were Christians. Saul (Paul) Persecutes the Church [edit | edit source] In Chapter 9 of Acts, we come into close contact with Saul, later known as Paul, for the first time. Beware of the NAR whale its really a killer whale with a man-made horn strapped on top. Ill have to change the names on these 12 chalkboards hundreds of times in the next couple of millennia. By claiming to have been under the teaching of this particular rabbi, Paul is claiming to have been educated in a most impressive way. Why is it so hard to give a straight answer to this simple question? No, I DONT want Paul to act like a Pope controlling all aspects of the church from a distance yet reading Pauls 2 letters to the church, it is clear to me this is exactly what he was doing. When the homeowner returned in the evening, he was furious. If I did something it MUST be right Dont use the Scripture to shed any light Dont do as I say, do as I do and then you can be a Pharisee too. No need to answer. Pauls speech and thought directly lines up with the teachings of Hillel. Exactly what Issa p al Masih did about 500 years earlier! What is the meaning of Tentmaker? Both Yeshua and Pauls ministries are simply another sect of Judaism. Even Festus said that Paul was very learned, Acts 26:24. This included sacrifices and multiple gods before and after the games. I justify everything I do If I testify about myself it MUST be true Im the only man in all history whose testimony doesnt need two or three. One special person, alone, with special words, and a special title, who could never be WRONG. Christians threatened his view and interpretation of the law until his conversion in Acts 9. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about A.D. 6 at the earliest. He was a ruthless persecutor who sought to stop what he saw as an aberration within Judaism. This piece (above) is well done. It is possible that Paul was not of the Hillel form of Pharasism, but rather the more radical Shammaite party. From your article clearly shows you dont even understand the basic concepts of Judaism nor what those schools taught. Here are answers to 2 common objections: .a) What about the so-called Golden Rule? Its called Islam and it is True Religion and the fastest growing religion on earth because people are realizing that Christianity is built on a foundation of lies and the religion of the Nazarenes and Ebionites is preserved in Islam. They all make Paul and his teachings the one absolute standard of right and wrong, rather than Gods commandments and the testimony of Jesus. Later, when Im at the height of my career, and Im financially secure and I dont have to worry about finding a job or keeping my job, and I have some real influence- maybe 40 years from now, when Im, like, in my sixties, say in around 2013- thats when Ill really be able to stand up for Jesus. Judas obviously didnt stand by Jesus in his trial, as the whole world knows. Evidence for this more accommodating opinion is found in the book of Acts. Religious Jews, who were living under the Law, were asking Jesus (at that time a teacher of the Law) concerning The Law. TWO. I wrote a short note on Pauls relationship with Gamaliel two years ago and it has been one of the more popular posts on Reading Acts. Third, as John Polhill observes, several rulings from Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, the Jewish commentary on the Law. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Lets not waste our time with endless debates about what Paul really meant with his wacky teachings about baptizing the dead or there is neither male nor female. Paul was wrong. Thanks, Andrew. You said that your QUOTE Quran is incorruptible. Thats like many Christians saying the Bible is inerrant. Muhammad is to Muslims as Paul is to most Christians as Mary is to most Catholics an idol that they worship, practically speaking. Which is why he had to go to Sinai (which is in current day Saudi Arabia). There is a fine line to be drawn, sure God uses who we are to accomplish his will, but Paul was changed at his conversion. Paul's impact on Christianity is enormous and cannot be overstated. The words spoken by Jesus, recorded in our Bible by Matthew Mark Luke & John, should be above all other words. The character and position of his father. Perhaps in a synagogue, either Hebrew or Hellenistic? You might be interested: Was Paul The Apostle Alive When Jesus Lived? Peter doesnt point to himself, or his own words, or all Scripture or The Bible, Peter doesnt claim his own words are the word of God, and he doesnt claim that he doesnt need a second witness. For example, are we missing any casuistry from Gamaliel which might demonstrate Gamaliels dissent from Hillel in specific cases presenting unique facts? Why do so many people frequently attack and tear down and dismiss the Original Apostles, particularly Peter, as if they were all incompetent, stupid, and wrong in so many ways, and they didnt even know what an Apostle was? The testimony of Jesus is the voice of Jesus, (The Red Letters,) recorded by the 11 faithful witnesses, the True Apostles that Jesus personally appointed and trained for over 3 years. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a short time. If you think Im wrong, Jesus commands you (Matthew chapter 18) to show me my fault. My view is very similar to the traditional Orthodox view of the texts of Scripture for almost 2000 years. Bibliography: Bruce Chilton, Rabbi Jesus 28-47; Gamaliel in ABD 2:904. He was absolutely brilliant. section 8 rentals in oak grove ms Moseley is not wrong: the earliest Christ followers were Jewish and no one tried to convert to Christianity, but that is because there was no Christianity to convert to at that point. And what kind of a stone is the most solid, permanent, and unchangeable? ). Only after the house is finished and the paint is dry can we go and paint the garage.. Paul, before his conversion, tended to be more like the Shammaites in that he was fairly violent and full of persecution. Paul made up his own rule. Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits. [Mark 6:6-7], .2) Gospel of Luke time lag between being appointed and being sent One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. The Apostle Peter made reference to Prophecy of Scripture, not All Scripture, and no its not the same thing at all. In 2019 he published a commentary. Not 1 as in 3 in 1. . The only think I have examined from him (Yeshua: A Guide to the Real Jesus and the Original Church) is occasionally accurate, but often wildly wrong. Dont be put off by the ravings of Paul the Pharisee that so many Bible-believing Christians push so hard. Created by. There were plenty of other messianic pretenders besides Jesus, the difference is that some claimed that he was raised form the dead. N. T. Wright describes the Shammaite Pharisee as a militant hard-liner that was not willing to work with Rome as long as they could study the Torah, as Hillel had said (What Saint Paul Really Said, 26). (Eph. QUOTE The Bible is none other than the voice of Him that sitteth upon the throne! Galatians: Freedom through Gods Grace (Wipf & Stock, 2019). The notion was given classic expression only a little more than a century ago by the biblical scholar John William Burgon. The Zealots were against the Political oppressors, the Sadducees were complacent and the Pharasees were die hard conservatives that had a history of killing over the strict preservation of the law (Polhill 27-28). Rabbinical eras Chazal Zugot Tannaim Amoraim Savoraim Geonim Rishonim Acharonim v t e In the Christian tradition, Gamaliel is recognized as a Pharisee doctor ." b. Is AARP PO Box 93143 Long Beach CA 90809-9720 a valid address? We cannot prove that Judas was present at that time, and we cannot prove that Matthias was absent at that time when Jesus spoke those words. / Line ID 0840450211. It was very interesting to me that it was likely that Paul was raised in a very Jewish home, trained in all the Jewish ways and teachings, and a student of Gamalieland yet he did react to Christianity in such a violent and zealous form. Gravity. It is an observation of fact that much of Matthew is simply copied from Mark. The title of Adolf Hitler as the leader of the German Nazis, author of Mein Kamph. Gamaliel is reflecting the Hillel tradition of non-violence and allowing God to deal with parties that against the Jews (Polhill, Paul and His Letters, 31). Share of voice equals share of mind. Helpful. Study with Quizlet and memorize flashcards containing terms like Definition of 'epistle', 5 Common Denominators of an Epistle, T/F - Christ is a relationship not a religion and more. What you consider mainsteam Judaism is nothing like the previous sects of Judaism and infact evolved after the temple was destroyed. There is no conservative or liberal spectrum regarding Judaism or the 32 sects of Judaism during the time of Yeshua. I am enjoying the discussion and information/opinions/wisdom here. I trust that no one is offended and that as a result of this comment, we might get closer to Him, The Truth. ), Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though. The reason why the Essenes left and went into the desert was because they believed the Pharisee were to lax in their laws and punishment in the Sanhedrin. When Christ was first preached multitudes gladly received the word. If you dont ask about Pauls sins, I wont tell about them. It sounds so right, so intelligent, so professional, so godly.. but it is fundamentally flawed. Ron Mosely and the archaeology team has gone through great lengths to disprove your theory by presenting actual archaeological evidence.. Yes you clearly are removing them from Jewish culture and using Constantine-Christianity and replacement theology to float most of your website. Paul, however, I think was so strongly devoted to the strict teachings of the Torah, that he had to fundamentally had to disagree with his teacher. Forgive me, but it easier to cite the following from the Wikipedia. I would think that he would include that in his self-description as the chief of sinners. mostly ranting about people not studying the Bible and running around eith misunderstandings. According to the Hebrew Bible, the tabernacle (Hebrew: , mishkn, meaning "residence" or "dwelling place"), also known as the Tent of the Congregation ( 'hel m', also Tent of Meeting, etc. I do not think, however, that Paul was a Christian Pharisee. Gamaliel. and to make a point in this conversation,where did you get the idea that Saul (Paul) was Jewish.? No it is true and I do know what im talking about since ive been a Yeshiva student for years and learning under well versed Orthodox and Messianic Rabbis. It is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from Johns baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. So what is the application of this parable? (And Peter certainly doesnt point to the words of some other man, a Pharisee at that, -Paul- and say that this other mans word is the word of God.). Paul might indeed have been a follower of the School of Shammai, but his mentioning Gamaliels name might have been intended to his (Pauls) having studies in Jerusalem when Gamaliel was head of the Sanhedrin. Evidence for this more accommodating opinion is found in the book of Acts, although some (like Chilton) are not completely convinced Acts portrays Gamaliel accurately. WE are not even in this game! It is a Rembrandt. There were no other New Testament books, and the Hebrew Scriptures were the Old Testament which was irrelevant, according to the heretic Marcion.) Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Scripture does not state whether Saul was or was not in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus crucifixion. Anyway, I should save a throne for him too.. What is a common analogy for a permanent decision? 5:7) Paul takes a Nazarite vow, validate his claim that he doesnt teach against Torah and upholds it. The rabbi Gamaliel was a Pharisee in the tradition of the great Hillel. In fact, it is in this capacity where he is first mentioned in Acts 5. I interpret 6 months of silence to mean: even if no one here has the courage to agree with me publicly, no one in the world can open a Bible and prove me wrong from the Bible text on these specific points Ive raised here. Either way, by Acts logic every Christian should reject false doctrines but if a new teacher appears and preaches about God the One God, and is called a Prophet, if his mission is as wildly successful, sans the forced conversions Christianity depended on, IS FORBIDDEN at that, obviously Christians are the new Pharisees for rejecting and slandering Prophet Mohammed (saw) and adhering to oral traditions of their forefathers. Nave's Topical Index. If yes, then are Pauls subjective states really discernible as correlates to these two different schools based only on Pauls texts? Contemporary Jewish records continue to list him first among the Sanhedrin.[24]. Youre the one playing fast and loose because youve made nonsense article doctrine even though Paul verbatim tell you where he comes from, his theology. On page 38 Polhil writes, Paul certainly showed more the attitude of the zealots than of Gamaliel. Polhil also mentions in Phillipians 3:5-6, Paul refers to his persecuting in close connection with his zeal for the law. Polhil then mentions that a modern Zionist would have a yearning for the independence of the nation and the restoration of the glory of the temple by the Messiah. After reading our sections it seems to me that although Paul studied under Gamaliel, his actions resembled more closely to the Shammaite party. I wont say Im high on Jesus, and so using a mind-altering drug for recreational purposes is wrong, because Jesus is better. I dont want to be rejected by my peers. Galatians: Freedom through Gods Grace (Wipf & Stock, 2019). Polhill observes that several rulings of Gamaliel appear in the Mishnah, mostly having to do with marriage and divorce. George Clinton? maybe not. He uses this in Philippians 3:12-14 to describe the Christian walk. Love as me, myself and I define love to be, and continuously redefined by sinful men. He was an ultra-conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view (Jesus was the Messiah and the High Priest killed him!). Gamaliel II, also called Gamaliel Of Jabneh, (flourished 2nd century ad), nasi (president) of the Sanhedrin, at that time the supreme Jewish legislative body, in Jabneh, whose greatest achievement was the unification of the important Jewish laws and rituals in a time of external oppression by Rome and internecine . Perhaps Gamiliels views influenced Pauls personal comments on marriage in 1 Corinthians 7 (Polhill, Paul and his Letters, 30). Since November 2021, Reading Acts is edited by Sarah Westphal. Gamaliel was the grandson of Hillel, the most renowned rabbi in Jewish history. He is never popular, but always interesting! It addresses exactly what I was thinking, and its thorough. http://www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html. Evangelism is not the most important commandment, and it isnt the entire Second Commandment. While Paul was studying under Gamaliel he was exposed to Hellenism, including the gymnasium. Not others in the future who will follow the risen Jesus Christ. Things which are unclear, those must remain that way until the Holy Spirit reveal them to each and everyone of us according to the level of grace , and most importantly, for a particular purpose, We born again believers do not read to know like them, but we read to live. Yes, this subject can get indepth, but I think it is better myself to keep it simple, and what we can know, from Scripture itself. Are the lines differentiating Gamaliel/Hillel from Shammaite Pharisees sufficiently filled out by robust bodies of exhaustive casuistry? Paul had decided to preach to gentiles apparently out of his own revelatory experience that this was the mission that had been given him by God when God called him to function as a prophet for this new Jesus movement. Paul says that he was taught by Gamaliel. This is more accurate, important, and authoritative than personal letters written by Paul the Pharisee, who never knew Jesus personally, had no part in His ministry, and had no eyewitness testimony. (check out wikipedia on yeshiva, that will give you a feel for a Torah / talmudic education, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshiva), I could careless who Saul aka Paul studied with ,the fact that someone studies does not hold anything within that person thinking or make up. He sent Shaul to the gentiles to teach his message and he is a Pharisee. Where is your yeshiva in Houston? Similar to my discussion with Sam above, the evidence for Pauls athletic metaphors is late, maybe 20 years after conversion. You seem to parrot some of his words in your replies. what is your source for that requirement? That means open your Bible and be specific. Paul is inferior, Jesus is superior. Acts presents the evangelizing apostle and church leader Barnabas as a model of integrity and character. He studied under Gamaliel. We are painters, and we paint. Wright (and others) point out that Gamaliel II seems more, er, pacifist Acts, while Paul seems to want to zealously pursue those who are accusing the High Priest of killing an innocent man. The relics of Saint Stephen were translated several months later to . This idea can even be applied to his post-conversion work seeing how he sought to integrate the Gentiles into the Church when it was still a controversial issue. I think the point was not that Jesus was the Messiah, but rather that Peter and John are stating that the High Priest killed the Messiah and God vindicated him by raising him from the dead. The overwhelming majority of the epistles is actually fighting against the teachings of Shammai in his time period. As a teen, his family sent him to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel, the most prestigious Jewish teacher of that time, similar to a Harvard education today. And one for Muhammad too. The answer to that question is, they have been listening to the voice of Paul, rather than the voices of Jesus and the Original Apostles. It isnt a question of mens opinions about what Paul really meant or what Paul must have known or what Paul was actually referring to here or what Paul was clearly implying or what we must conclude that Paul was assuming, etc. But we dont need to put words in the mouth of Jesus, we can let Jesus speak for himself, and we can listen to Him and obey Him. It ignores the previous verse, 2 Timothy 3:15, which clearly indicates that Paul was NOT referring to his own letters when he wrote the words All Scripture.. His knowledge and metaphors have helped me relate more to what his letters say. Lets see. Which is why the Holy Spirit and Jesus chose to use Paul I believe because he had all the good and needed training before his conversion. Who was Paul taught under? And one throne for that other guy named Peter. Gamaliel and his beliefs seem to have a fairly large impact on Paul and his theology. While it is true that Paul did persecute early Christians, it was for his love of the Torah and not because he was rebelling against Roman oppression. The Fast is known as Yom Kippur. They all teach we should be like Paul and we should listen to Paul without examining Pauls life and Pauls teachings in the light of the teachings of Jesus in Scripture. Well considering I am infact Jewish I dont need your advice on what I should read.. There were at least 2 elements of Paul's training. Here is how Jesus answered that question: #1 One of the teachers of the law asked him [Jesus], Of all the commandments, which is the most important?, The most important one, answered Jesus, is this: Hear, of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Also to other eyewitness testimony, recorded by Mark and Luke.) This is very similar to The Beatles- All you need is love. Notice that at the Last Supper, when Judas lost his throne and Matthias was definitely absent, Jesus chose to speak of thrones rather than twelve thrones as he had previously. You have a rather closed worldview and are blind to what I have said. I didnt know everything 7 years ago either but I have grown and learned new things about God and His Word in the past 7 years, as is normal for a growing believer. You are Simon son of John said Jesus, without elaboration. Rabbis are Reubenites. Surely it makes no sense at all that our loving Creator could or would give us a message we cannot understand. Neither do I condemn you said Jesus, to a woman entrapped by dogs. The Pharisee Gamaliel is mentioned twice in the New Testament (Acts 5:34; 22:3). The people who will protest most loudly against this truth are the modern Pauls: traveling evangelists, speakers, writers, abusive absentee mega-church pastors, Crusaders, and self-appointed apostles like Paul, who find it profitable to be like Paul rather than follow Jesus the Jewish Messiah. All Jews were Hellenized to some extent, perhaps Paul made more use of Hellenisitic categories after the Damascus Road, but as a citizen of Tarsus it is impossible for him to be completely and solely Jewish in his thinking. The Book of Revelation written by the Apostle John, chapter 21 verse 14 says The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostle of the Lamb. Nothing about a 13th Apostle or an Apostle of the Gentiles. Paul was in Jerusalem from the age of 3 (under Gamaliel), so to assume he already knew how to WRITE Greek would be fallacious.. What does Josephus say about Gamaliel? Phillip J. Long- Sorry i have nothing to learn from replacement theology or of Constantine Christianity followers who believe that somehow eventhough the book is filled with Jews or converts practicing Judaism is magically replaced by ridiculous made up church doctrine. The one in Deuteronomy 6:4-5, or the one in Leviticus 19:18 ? It seems that people want to limit the intervention of God in the lives of people he intends to use. Like a little squirrel dressed up As a flying superhero We give ourselves the Title And zoom around the atmosphere Oh! Responding to a question from Peter, Jesus said to them: you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [Matthew 19:28]. Menu. This is a good point, although I am not sure that the tradition is totally reliable. For Chilton, it was the speech of Stephen that forced Paul to openly break from his teacher by participating in the stoning of Stephen (Rabbi Jesus, 43). Mosley is actually studied under Flusser. [1 & 2 Corinthians.}. This is a question our experts keep getting from time to time. The Bible says clearly that Paul in his words said he was a Paharisee and he that he sat under the teachings of Gamaliel.
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